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1 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 6:39:53pm

It's a good summary LVQ. Ever read Sagan's "Demon-Haunted World"? You're encapsulating a lot of the same themes about skepticism in a smaller space.

2 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 6:48:20pm

re: #1 The Ghost of a Flea

It's a good summary LVQ. Ever read Sagan's "Demon-Haunted World"? You're encapsulating a lot of the same themes about skepticism in a smaller space.

Thank you very much. That was a great book. So is Bob Park's Voodoo Science. I think you would really like it.

3 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 6:54:42pm

This also applies to all the scam/spam banner ads that you see on all major news sites if you are using a browser that does not have Adblock enabled.

Single mom's $5 weird old trick to lose weight/get white teeth/unwrinkle your skin/make $$$ working at home

Doctors/dentists/stockbrokers/spammers hate "single mom" for "discovering" their secret!

4 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 7:24:27pm

re: #3 Alouette

This also applies to all the scam/spam banner ads that you see on all major news sites if you are using a browser that does not have Adblock enabled.

Single mom's $5 weird old trick to lose weight/get white teeth/unwrinkle your skin/make $$$ working at home

Doctors/dentists/stockbrokers/spammers hate "single mom" for "discovering" their secret!

Exactly. If it were so useful, they wouldn't be advertising in popups.

It's like the psychics who never win the lottery, or seem to know when a disaster is coming.

5 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 7:25:18pm

re: #3 Alouette

Did you see point 8 by the way, I just added it.

6 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:08:51pm

Nice one, Ludwig.

7 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:14:27pm

re: #6 Romantic Heretic

Nice one, Ludwig.

Thank you very much.

8 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:27:30pm

Thanks, Ludwig.

And speaking of how real science deals with really hard-to-believe claims, consider the "faster than light particles." The real scientists who (may have) observed them posted their data on the web and invited everyone to show them where they went wrong. No "we discovered a new Vorlon epsilon hyper spatial correction in a Heisenberg chamber that overturns Einstein."

9 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:32:03pm

re: #8 C1nnabar

Thanks, Ludwig.

And speaking of how real science deals with really hard-to-believe claims, consider the "faster than light particles." The real scientists who (may have) observed them posted their data on the web and invited everyone to show them where they went wrong. No "we discovered a new Vorlon epsilon hyper spatial correction in a Heisenberg chamber that overturns Einstein."

Is it up on Archiv X yet? I will have to read it when I get into the university tomorrow.

10 freetoken  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:35:48pm
7. Dr. Jones showed that the philosopher stone he has invented is the key to eternal youth according to the StayYoungForever.com corporate website.

That domain name is available, if you want to buy it. Apparently Dr. Jones doesn't need it anymore.

11 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:38:32pm

re: #10 freetoken

That domain name is available, if you want to buy it. Apparently Dr. Jones doesn't need it anymore.

Leave it to you to check that! You are one of my favourite people here.

12 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:39:43pm

re: #8 C1nnabar

And thank you, and for the record, I give that epsilon chance of being a real result.

13 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:45:37pm

re: #12 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm not qualified to judge, but I'm expecting to see the error explained, not the laws of physics rewritten. So are the people who got those results -- which was my point, of course.

14 shutdown  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:46:57pm

Favourited and thanks.

15 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:57:14pm

re: #14 imp_62

Favourited and thanks.

And thank you. Please pass it on if you like it.

16 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 9:10:01pm

I always figure that if I can't understand the basic sentence, the rest is BS.

1. Dr. Jones has discovered a new Vorlon epsilon hyper spatial correction in a Heisenberg chamber that overturns Einstein or Newton!

Basic Sentence:

Dr. Jones discovered Correction that overturns Einstein or Newton.

How does something overturn one thing OR another.

It doesn't make sense. To me anyway.

17 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 9:24:41pm

re: #16 ggt

I always figure that if I can't understand the basic sentence, the rest is BS.

1. Dr. Jones has discovered a new Vorlon epsilon hyper spatial correction in a Heisenberg chamber that overturns Einstein or Newton!

Basic Sentence:

Dr. Jones discovered Correction that overturns Einstein or Newton.

How does something overturn one thing OR another.

It doesn't make sense. To me anyway.

Overturn in general means to falsify in a scientific context.

I meant the first warning as parody. The way to read that is in what I wrote shortly after:

New discovery, technical words, makes Einstein wrong. Not bloody likely.

18 BishopX  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 9:34:29pm

I have a minor quibble with point 2, or rather the concept that crazy ideas are crazy enough that they might just work. This is really only true for relatively simple systems. The vast majority of physics is relatively simple (some of it is very hard though). When you're dealing with complex systems (e.g. biology) where there isn't an intuitive way to construct a thought experiment which shows the potential validity of theory it becomes much more difficult to determine if someone claiming the scientific consensus is oppressing them has a valid point.

Case in point would the anti-cancer diet (i.e. a diet which cures cancer, not one which prevents it). Lets start with the study of genetics, 50 years ago we had static DNA where you had the genes or not. Then we figured out most of your genes were junk and only select portions were "turned on". Then we figured out prenatal environment had an effect of which portions of your genes expressed themselves. Then we figured out that gene regulation may be able to be modeled as a system of chaotic attractors, where cancer is really just an expression of a different basin of attraction. Then we figured out that maybe what you eat has some effect on what genes express themselves. Suddenly the old crank anti-cancer diets don't seem so irrational anymore. They may or may not have worked, but it turned out that they have a leg to stand on.

I don't have a good way to judge where the current scientific consensus is wrong (I would be in a lab working on my nobel is I did!), but I think it's important to realize that any scientific field not derived from first principles is going to to a little wrong. And it will often be wrong in surprising ways, which often has the effect of oppressing someone who had the right idea at the wrong time.

19 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 9:52:21pm

re: #18 BishopX

I have a minor quibble with point 2, or rather the concept that crazy ideas are crazy enough that they might just work.

I think you are reading too much into it. Truly ground breaking ideas are by definition explorations into totally new constructs. They are often very counter-intuitive and frequently seem crazy at the time of introduction.

This is really only true for relatively simple systems.

Not so at all. The idea that all macroscopic life on Earth had common ancestry was one of those crazy ideas that turned out to be true, and biology is quite complex.

The vast majority of physics is relatively simple (some of it is very hard though).

Not sure what you mean by that...

When you're dealing with complex systems (e.g. biology)

My primary fields are chaos and fluids. Complexity means something mathematical to me. I am not sure what you mean here.

where there isn't an intuitive way to construct a thought experiment which shows the potential validity of theory it becomes much more difficult to determine if someone claiming the scientific consensus is oppressing them has a valid point.

If you can not even clearly think about a problem, you don't have even have the right questions, let alone a theory to answer some of them. I strongly disagree.

Case in point would the anti-cancer diet (i.e. a diet which cures cancer, not one which prevents it).

OK... am I to infer that you believe such an animal exists?

Lets start with the study of genetics, 50 years ago we had static DNA where you had the genes or not. Then we figured out most of your genes were junk and only select portions were "turned on". Then we figured out prenatal environment had an effect of which portions of your genes expressed themselves. Then we figured out that gene regulation may be able to be modeled as a system of chaotic attractors, where cancer is really just an expression of a different basin of attraction. Then we figured out that maybe what you eat has some effect on what genes express themselves. Suddenly the old crank anti-cancer diets don't seem so irrational anymore. They may or may not have worked, but it turned out that they have a leg to stand on.

I am sorry, I don't follow. You have said correctly that our understanding of genetics and cancer improved with time. I don't see at all how this shows an anti cancer diet is more feasible.

I don't have a good way to judge where the current scientific consensus is wrong (I would be in a lab working on my nobel is I did!), but I think it's important to realize that any scientific field not derived from first principles is going to to a little wrong. And it will often be wrong in surprising ways, which often has the effect of oppressing someone who had the right idea at the wrong time.

Stories of the right idea being too far before its time to recognized for its importance are much more common in the medical world than in the so called "hard" sciences, but it does happen there too. All I can say is that for every such story, for it to exist at all, it means that the truth did out. Otherwise we would not talk about how people should have noticed sooner.

20 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 9:52:55pm

$5 on quantum shenanigans.

21 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 10:16:36pm

And Galileo was a crazy violating the contemporary standards of science.

22 lostlakehiker  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 10:23:06pm

re: #4 LudwigVanQuixote

Exactly. If it were so useful, they wouldn't be advertising in popups.

It's like the psychics who never win the lottery, or seem to know when a disaster is coming.

Not a trick question: what about the housewife who wins five lotteries, totaling several million dollars? The odds are impossibly long; you need scientific notation.

This really happened. Your conclusion, ladies and gentlemen?

23 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 10:42:39pm

re: #22 lostlakehiker

Not a trick question: what about the housewife who wins five lotteries, totaling several million dollars? The odds are impossibly long; you need scientific notation.

This really happened. Your conclusion, ladies and gentlemen?

conclusion: No way.

24 eightyfiv  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 11:03:06pm

This is an excellent summary for cases in the physical sciences, but I think it missses a bit when it comes to social and complex systems sciences, e.g. ecology, climatology, medicine, psychology, where a whole lot of bullshit makes it past peer review into publication and sometimes even into conventional wisdom. I think the problems are twofold:

First, experimental runs are hideously expensive -- think human medical subjects or quarantined environmental test plots -- so experiments are almost always run at the margin of statistical significance or as one-off case studies in order to keep the cost under control. When combined with publication bias and multiple varied studies statistically controlled as though they were one-offs rather than members of an ensemble of tests, you get a whole lot of statistical flukes peer-reviewed and published (and trumpeted in the popular press).

Second, visibility in these systems is limited -- we don't (yet) have good tools to see all of what is going on, let alone understand it. There are too many neurons, too many molecules. People tend to attribute more importance to aspects of the system that are known and visible and less importance to the possibilities of the unknown. This is reasonable, but only up to a point. It leaves ample room for personal biases to shape interpretations. It leads to scenarios like BishopX was talking about. It leads to totally unexpected causal chains surfacing over time and to fairly unimportant phenomena being assigned extraordinary weight.

My example pet peeve these days is the interpretation of fMRI, which has given birth to a modern version of phrenology. All we can see are big regions lighting up, so it must be big regions that have important tasks assigned to them! Cue endless stream of papers claiming 'the X region of your brain is responsible for Y'. Also note amusing expose of statistical abuses.

There are many other examples. Nutrition science seems to be a perennial basket case now that all the essential nutrients have been found. Gender reassignment surgery for infants was a horrible mistake driven by John Money's biases and a single case study. Psychology seems to reinvent itself every few decades. Etc.

25 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 11:20:52pm

re: #24 eightyfiv

This is an excellent summary for cases in the physical sciences, but I think it missses a bit when it comes to social and complex systems sciences, e.g. ecology, climatology, medicine, psychology, where a whole lot of bullshit makes it past peer review into publication and sometimes even into conventional wisdom. I think the problems are twofold:

OK, so first off, I am in no way sure at all what you mean by complex sciences. Complexity is generally a reference to chaos - as something that arises out of systems of differential equations. What do you mean by it? Further, how can you possibly lump climate and ecology into the same category as medicine and psychology for any example?

First, experimental runs are hideously expensive -- think human medical subjects or quarantined environmental test plots --

OK.. I'm certainly with you for that (to a certain point) as applies to medical trials, but science has a certain cost of doing business. Not all experiments are ill funded or lack enough data to have statistical significance.

so experiments are almost always run at the margin of statistical significance or as one-off case studies in order to keep the cost under control.

And you claim this to be generally true for wildly disparate fields including climate which is mostly physics, chemistry, direct observation, and computational work?

When combined with publication bias and multiple varied studies statistically controlled as though they were one-offs rather than members of an ensemble of tests, you get a whole lot of statistical flukes peer-reviewed and published (and trumpeted in the popular press).

That's a little harsh - and if someone knows statistics - which anyone claiming the title of scientist should - it is easy to weed out the junk papers. Now I am a physicist. I do a lot of work with climate. As far as that score is concerned you are just way off base.

I can't talk to what is and is not in the medical literature with any authority and I really have never looked at any of the psychology or sociology literature, so I really can't comment. However, if that is the way it is in those fields then yes it would be a serious issue. Since I have met a large number of university types in those fields who did not strike me as amateur hacks - I would like to believe that you are perhaps being overly harsh.

26 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 11:31:07pm

re: #24 eightyfiv

Continued:

Second, visibility in these systems is limited -- we don't (yet) have good tools to see all of what is going on, let alone understand it. There are too many neurons, too many molecules. People tend to attribute more importance to aspects of the system that are known and visible and less importance to the possibilities of the unknown. This is reasonable, but only up to a point.

Fair enough. You seem to be heading into hard cog sci. This is also not my field. There is the old rule of "I can't see a thing really does mean that I can't see a thing."

It leaves ample room for personal biases to shape interpretations. It leads to scenarios like BishopX was talking about. It leads to totally unexpected causal chains surfacing over time and to fairly unimportant phenomena being assigned extraordinary weight.

Yeah but that is junk science if true. No data is no data. Points 2-6 cover this. People who like to conjure ghosts from their data are not scientists.

My example pet peeve these days is the interpretation of fMRI, which has given birth to a modern version of phrenology. All we can see are big regions lighting up, so it must be big regions that have important tasks assigned to them! Cue endless stream of papers claiming 'the X region of your brain is responsible for Y'. Also note amusing expose of statistical abuses.

And bad math is bad math.

There are many other examples. Nutrition science seems to be a perennial basket case now that all the essential nutrients have been found. Gender reassignment surgery for infants was a horrible mistake driven by John Money's biases and a single case study. Psychology seems to reinvent itself every few decades. Etc.

And as to fads coming and going on that end of the spectrum, I certainly hear you.

I have heard medical "research" horror stories from my brother - a very good MD. They all boiled down to people needing to be spanked with an elementary statistics book followed by a lesson in logic and set theory.

I get that. I also get how power of personality can damage science in fields where rock stars are over revered,, and the drive or the ability to do the science right might be lacking for numerous reasons.

My point is that those are all giant red flags and that if it is all as far spread as you imply then science is not really getting done.

27 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 11:48:33pm

re: #24 eightyfiv

re: #25 LudwigVanQuixote

The points that you two are discussing have been mentioned many times, for many years. It's an ongoing debate on methodology, if I understand you two. It gets down to the differences between the colloquial terms 'hard sciences' and 'soft sciences'.

Your discussion also raises issues about where the boundaries lay for specific fields. I think eightfiv's definition of complex is where an inquiry seems to overlap into many different fields, such as ecology, where you might find yourself in a room with biologists and chemists, not to mention sociologists and psychologists. Everyone has something different to say, and they do indeed say it differently given the jargon each field generates.

This discussion has worked its way through philosophy in the debates between advocates of 'positivism', such as Karl Popper, and advocates of more qualitative methods, such as Adorno.

Despite all of this, it should not affect the daily work of any given scientist, such as a physicist, in even the smallest way. Unless, of course, part of your work requires a degree of inspiration. At which point you'd enter a question that has perplexed mankind since the dawn of civilization, and that is, where does inspiration come from, and how can I get some tomorrow?

28 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:26:50am
29 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:28:36am

re: #28 000G

This is hilarious:

#mundaneneutrinoexplanations on Twitter

Awesome!

30 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:29:40am

Those are not the neutrinos you are looking for!

31 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:36:04am

Speed of light is a liberal hoax

Love it!

32 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 3:22:14am

Here it is: [Link: arxiv.org...]

33 Archangelus  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 3:50:36am

Beautiful piece of writing, Ludwig.

34 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 4:35:20am

I think you should rename your essay, "<%=GetIPFromhttpreferer%>Local Teacher Lists All the Weird Old Tricks to Spot Junk Science! Scammers, Spammers and Climate Change Deniers hate him!"

35 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:21:21am

re: #33 Archangelus

thank you!

36 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:32:23am

re: #27 Bob Levin

re: #25 LudwigVanQuixote

Your discussion also raises issues about where the boundaries lay for specific fields. I think eightfiv's definition of complex is where an inquiry seems to overlap into many different fields, such as ecology, where you might find yourself in a room with biologists and chemists, not to mention sociologists and psychologists. Everyone has something different to say, and they do indeed say it differently given the jargon each field generates.

Iamnotascientist (and fools rush in where angels fear to tread).

I think when people talk about simple vs. complex in this context they're referring to the fact that you can study things one at a time (e.g. forces, particles, molecules) -- and find zillions of examples to look at -- (Avogadro's number) molecules per 12 grams of carbon.

Organisms, whether you're looking at how they work or how they interact, involve massive numbers of interacting systems, the total number of organisms is comparatively tiny, and there are a lot of circumstances where you can't separate out the particular thing you want to study from everything else that's working at the time.

("A Feeling for the Organism: The Life and Work of Barbara McClintock" by Evelyn Fox Keller and her other work (her doctorate is in physics, by the way) has a good deal to say about reductionism and "holism" in modern, particularly biological, science.)

37 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:08:31am

re: #36 C1nnabar

That is fair. In the mean time though it is important to get the definitions correct so both sides know what the other is saying.

38 lostlakehiker  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:36:45am

re: #23 LudwigVanQuixote

conclusion: No way.

Actually, it really did happen. Conclusion: she managed to hack the system. Suppose, just to take a wild guess, the authorities used a common, and all too simple, pseudorandom algorithm to generate winning ticket numbers. And suppose she spotted the trend, watching the winning numbers in the paper, and then used it?

And just for good measure, suppose it turns out she had a PhD in statistics, which would make it more plausible that she knew what she was doing? (She did have that credential.)

And now, on the lighter side, xkcd faster than light comic

39 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:56:32am

re: #23 LudwigVanQuixote

conclusion: No way.

Ludwig, those were scratchers not the ball drop games. That may help show how a couple multi winners have pulled it off.

40 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:00:34am

Ludwig,
Given the straightforward call for others to challenge- the CERN speed limit breaking neutrinos puts that in the solid science process category. While I'd love to see that hold up, particularly in some dimensional phenomena, I'll be surprised if it does.

No red flag, or did I miss anything?

41 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:21:02am

re: #38 lostlakehiker

fOK fine... so there you have the answer... no way if a kosher game. The game was not kosher. The question assumes a kosher game.

42 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:23:18am

re: #40 Rightwingconspirator

No red flag for sure. This falls under extraordinarily strong claim that requires extra-ordinary evidence as well as the paper was just released and no one has time to scrutinize the work.

43 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 1:16:37pm

re: #42 LudwigVanQuixote

Slight correction... PIMF

No red flag yet for sure other than the obvious.

This falls under "extraordinarily strong claim requires extra-ordinarily strong evidence" as well as the paper was just released and no one has yet had time to scrutinize the work.

44 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 7:41:32pm

I'm glad this Page thread is still active.

My current "grrrr" is the Gardasil scare. "40 some girls dead after getting the Vaccine" was a post on my fb.

No info as to how the girls died. Hit by car, suffered some bacterial infection from the injection site, heart failure?

Trying to explain that correlation doesn't mean causation is so frustrating. nearly 1/2 the respondents "still wouldn't have their daughter get the vaccine."

Does anyone think critically?


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